Top 3 Showdown: Farsight's Official Pre-1980 Poll

[SuperKaladrax]

I have a couple of things to say here. First is the question of table preference. I get that people prefer certain eras more than others, because the same is true for me. My preference is the late 70s - early 80s solid state. I have a distinct non-preference for most DMDs. As a question of what I will buy, if I'm only buying things I genuinely really want, the list from TPA is pretty small. But, I tend to buy pretty much everything anyway. Most of this is courtesy support - not all these tables are floating my boat, but I'm prepared to show other tables people want some love in the expectation that I willl also, occassionally, get tables I really do want. It's not a table war. I figure we're all in the app together and that everybody who likes pinball should get a slice of the pie. So I'll buy Phantom of the Opera even though I couldn't care less about it. And I'll back The Addams Family, even though I couldn't care less about that one, either. Because they're pinball, and they belong in the game. EMs should have a place here, and while I can respect that some people don't like them and want different styles (like DMDs), the DMDs are already pretty robustly represented. You've got lots of pie. With your help, EM people can get a tiny scrap, too. You're not obligated to do this, but it would be nice and it would help round out the game for everybody. But whether you agree with that or not, one thing I do not accept is the attitude "this is modern times, get over it". I think that's selfish and short-sighted. I wish I had some clear idea how many people out there are like me - not buying DMDs because we love them, but just to show support for the game. I'd like to know what the real stats are.

I also do not accept these polls as in any way indicative of EM support. They're gamed. I have no problem with Xenon winning, but a HUGE problem with Farsight using the opportunity to unilaterally backtrack from EMs. I voted Paragon in this one, but nobody told me this was "whether EM at all". Knowing that, I'd have voted Fireball. My vote changes based on information kept from us. I've put up with a lot from Farsight, and being on the 360 that is rather a lot. I have seldom wavered in my support for tables of all types. I will not accept this. It's just bogus. After all the crap I've been through, this is just a bridge too far.

I don't think Farisght "owes" me anything. I don't think other players "owe" me anything. Or that I "owe" them something. I'm just saying it would be nice, REAL nice, if EMs got a teeny, tiny, sliver of love and not just thrown out at the merest excuse. And while Farsight might think this poll says something, and it means something for the bottom line, I'm saying that the possibility that "preserving pinball" actually meant something, that a scattered EM might appear, sold 40+ of the tables already out to me. And will sell them again whenever the thing appears on Xbox 360. The hint of one EM equals 80 sales of tables from me. Because this app isn't about one table, it's about all of them.

Showing a scrap of love to part of the customer base might not just sell that EM table, it might bring in somebody new who buys into the back catalog, too. If you want that quantified as data, I can't do it. The plural of anecdote is not data. I can only speak for me. Genie sold me on this game, so Genie (the much-maligned) will sell 80+ tables to me. That's a fact, whatever anybody's metrics say.

But I can forgive no EM if there's a good reason. I just don't think this poll is it, and I think neglecting any era of pinball, especially given some of the stinker choices that have been made, ignores the power of one table to unlock the back catalog to an interested buyer. Everybody has that one table that hooks them. It's different for everybody, but everybody has one. For some people it's TAF, for me it was Genie. For somebody out there it might be LCA. Any of the tables can sell the whole app to a person. It's the power of the back catalog, the work already done. There's a cumulative effect to it all, but it also works the reverse. You can just as easily cumulatively alienate an audience.

 

[JJH516]

I have a couple of things to say here. First is the question of table preference. I get that people prefer certain eras more than others, because the same is true for me. My preference is the late 70s - early 80s solid state. I have a distinct non-preference for most DMDs. As a question of what I will buy, if I'm only buying things I genuinely really want, the list from TPA is pretty small. But, I tend to buy pretty much everything anyway. Most of this is courtesy support - not all these tables are floating my boat, but I'm prepared to show other tables people want some love in the expectation that I willl also, occassionally, get tables I really do want. It's not a table war. I figure we're all in the app together and that everybody who likes pinball should get a slice of the pie. So I'll buy Phantom of the Opera even though I couldn't care less about it. And I'll back The Addams Family, even though I couldn't care less about that one, either. Because they're pinball, and they belong in the game. EMs should have a place here, and while I can respect that some people don't like them and want different styles (like DMDs), the DMDs are already pretty robustly represented. You've got lots of pie. With your help, EM people can get a tiny scrap, too. You're not obligated to do this, but it would be nice and it would help round out the game for everybody. But whether you agree with that or not, one thing I do not accept is the attitude "this is modern times, get over it". I think that's selfish and short-sighted. I wish I had some clear idea how many people out there are like me - not buying DMDs because we love them, but just to show support for the game. I'd like to know what the real stats are.

I also do not accept these polls as in any way indicative of EM support. They're gamed. I have no problem with Xenon winning, but a HUGE problem with Farsight using the opportunity to unilaterally backtrack from EMs. I voted Paragon in this one, but nobody told me this was "whether EM at all". Knowing that, I'd have voted Fireball. My vote changes based on information kept from us. I've put up with a lot from Farsight, and being on the 360 that is rather a lot. I have seldom wavered in my support for tables of all types. I will not accept this. It's just bogus. After all the crap I've been through, this is just a bridge too far.

I don't think Farisght "owes" me anything. I don't think other players "owe" me anything. Or that I "owe" them something. I'm just saying it would be nice, REAL nice, if EMs got a teeny, tiny, sliver of love and not just thrown out at the merest excuse. And while Farsight might think this poll says something, and it means something for the bottom line, I'm saying that the possibility that "preserving pinball" actually meant something, that a scattered EM might appear, sold 40+ of the tables already out to me. And will sell them again whenever the thing appears on Xbox 360. The hint of one EM equals 80 sales of tables from me. Because this app isn't about one table, it's about all of them.

Showing a scrap of love to part of the customer base might not just sell that EM table, it might bring in somebody new who buys into the back catalog, too. If you want that quantified as data, I can't do it. The plural of anecdote is not data. I can only speak for me. Genie sold me on this game, so Genie (the much-maligned) will sell 80+ tables to me. That's a fact, whatever anybody's metrics say.

But I can forgive no EM if there's a good reason. I just don't think this poll is it, and I think neglecting any era of pinball, especially given some of the stinker choices that have been made, ignores the power of one table to unlock the back catalog to an interested buyer. Everybody has that one table that hooks them. It's different for everybody, but everybody has one. For some people it's TAF, for me it was Genie. For somebody out there it might be LCA. Any of the tables can sell the whole app to a person. It's the power of the back catalog, the work already done. There's a cumulative effect to it all, but it also works the reverse. You can just as easily cumulatively alienate an audience.

I'm not a fan of EM's at all, even though they're from my era. In fact, I rarely find joy in them, but I've bought them from TPA anyway. (The EM's that I DO have interest in seem to not have enough support to get made) If they were to sell a single EM, I'd buy it, because A.) I like to support the company, and B.) It doesn't hurt to have something different in the collection.

Where we disagree is the popularity of EMs, but that's a debate that's been discussed to death, and I've already said what I had to say on it. However, I do agree that EMs could use a little more love. (Unfortunately though, the majority don't want them, based on daily requests and pack sales. At least that's according to Farsight)

 

[SuperKaladrax]

I'm not arguing that EMs would be especially popular. I would expect they would be a niche product. I'm even content, provided the data is good, with not doing them if there's good reason. What I object to here is using the poll to infer that people don't want EMs. That's bogus data, an invalid inference. To give an example, the same data shows us, in both polls, that the cumulative majority voted against Xenon. So it won both polls, but the majority "doesn't" want it. So should it be made? The data tells us that less than 50% of the customers want it.

That is, of course, an equally invalid inference. But that's pretty much what Farsight did re: EMs here. They drew a conclusion that is not necessarily supported by the data, because the data wasn't asking the question from which the inference was drawn.

My second point is about exploiting cumulative sales in the back catalog. It might be worth giving some love to the more niche audience now and then because it's not a strict line of how one table performs against another - it's also a question of how much additional support through the catalog such a table can bring. There's also the question of growing the audience - and whether or not bringing in some new grognards might be worth it. These are questions not as easily quantified, but that doesn't mean they should be dismissed out of hand or unilaterally. And certainly not on the grounds of the data represented in these two polls.

The only way to know is one of two options:

Either A: make a poll that asks if people would support (buy) one EM per season, yes or no. If that poll shows overwhelmingly no, then we have a clear answer, don't make any, and we can all shut up.

Or B: take a risk and make one of the IPDB top ten EMs. If it tanks, we have our answer. Don't make any more, we'll shut up. It wouldn't be the first time Farsight squeaked out an unpopular stinker table on its own, so it hardly represents an enormous risk. And we know it will sell some, so it won't be a complete loss.

Either of those I would accept as definitive, and immediately cease griping forthwith. And point new people who ask to the results that back up the "no". But I won't accept crap data.

 

[StarDust4Ever]

I really like the idea of more EMs. DMDs are fun as hell, don't get me wrong, but there's only so much visual information I can take.

I've used the three EMs (counting Genie even though it's technically SS) as "cool down" tables, especially Big Shot. I'd love to add some EMs or older "EM like" SS tables such as Paragon or Xenon. I voted Xenon but either one would be fantastic. So much great stuff.

It doesn't need 1000 pages of goals or objectives to be entertaining. Some like STTNG and TZ, I can't figure out what the hell to do.

Simplicity is elegance sometimes...

 

[wolfson]

I`m a real optimistic mongrel.we haven`t seen much of STERN tables yet and I`m sure FARSIGHT have access to some EM tables.i wouldn`t be amazed if we got a one off table pack of 4 EMs.here`s bloody HOPING !!!

 

[Espy]

Wow, thanks for pointing this out.

http://www.ipdb.org/images/1502/image-29.jpg

Any other tables that have dividers like this?

I can't see the dividers - what am I looking for here?

 

[Locksley]

Not quoting any posts but I am thinking about the posts that talk about pros and cons.

According to Bobby King EM (and possible SS?) sells less than DMD and the viable option in early days was to package it in with a DMD with the table packs.
Problem here is ofcourse that I believe many of us buys the seasonal passes (any data on that?).
If I were to choose table per table I would not buy all the DMDs, but SS would all be in there and some EMs.

What I want to point out was that the sales figures might be misleading because of seasonal passes.

I wouldn't mind seeing Bally Wizard EM as a release.
I would buy that (well, it would be included in my seasonal pass...)

 

[TomL]

I can't see the dividers - what am I looking for here?

I'm only guessing, as I've never seen this pin in RL. The skill shot trough is at the far right of the picture. Instead of it being a solid track as it is in most games, there are discrete "rollers" that form the trough surface, with gaps between each roller that may allow ball to drop into the skill shot pocket.

I think.

 

[vikingerik]

I'm only guessing, as I've never seen this pin in RL. The skill shot trough is at the far right of the picture. Instead of it being a solid track as it is in most games, there are discrete "rollers" that form the trough surface, with gaps between each roller that may allow ball to drop into the skill shot pocket.

That's correct. And the rollers are not round, but oblate, so that the skill shot acts unpredictably depending on their orientations. TPA replicates the plunger unpredictability for BOP's skill shot, but doesn't really show it visually.

 

[vikingerik]

one thing I do not accept is the attitude "this is modern times, get over it".

Great post. I'll comment on that line, though. I don't think that's the attitude we're seeing, that you should only like DMDs. Liking EMs is perfectly fine. The attitude is that the market as a whole likes DMDs more and will buy them far more than EMs, and as a business that needs profit to survive, that's the direction Farsight has to go in.

You do have a real point that the whole poll process seemed rigged to force an EM to lose to Xenon, as if it's trying to sweep the EM issue under the rug that way. That's somewhat regrettable. But Farsight's got a point here too. All the folks that say they want EMs... is that really true? People even hold up Genie and Gorgar as examples of the EMs they like... which aren't even EMs! The polling and sales are delivering the hard numbers, that the EM love isn't nearly as much as a vocal minority wants to make it seem. Why didn't all these putative EM lovers step up and vote for Fireball? Because what they want isn't really EM in particular, it's the throwback gameplay style. Xenon can deliver that just as well while also crossing over to fans of later eras.

BTW, the only reason anyone hates Genie around here is that outlandish 3 million point wizard goal. If that were a manageable 1 million instead, it would be loved perfectly well.

 

[Crawley]

Not quoting any posts but I am thinking about the posts that talk about pros and cons.

According to Bobby King EM (and possible SS?) sells less than DMD and the viable option in early days was to package it in with a DMD with the table packs.
Problem here is ofcourse that I believe many of us buys the seasonal passes (any data on that?).
If I were to choose table per table I would not buy all the DMDs, but SS would all be in there and some EMs.

What I want to point out was that the sales figures might be misleading because of seasonal passes.

I wouldn't mind seeing Bally Wizard EM as a release.
I would buy that (well, it would be included in my seasonal pass...)

I've never seen any actual sales data they've released and don't think it exists outside of the company. So all anyone has to go on is general comments employees have made about sales. I don't recall seeing any comments specifically about Season Pass vs Individual Table/Table Pack sales. I would be curious about the numbers as well as platform sales. But don't think we'll ever see those.

But yeah employees have commented more than once that EMs did not sell well. And I think these recent polls have shown they are a hard sell with the community.

I do hope they find some way to add an EM. Silverballs had a neat idea of offering a free EM table if you own a (or all) of the season passes to entice people to purchase season passes. And I threw in the idea of adding an EM as an additional table for the next Kickstarter table reward. If they can't viably add an EM to a season then hopefully they can figure out a creative way to make it happen.

At this point in the game life, where you have more than 50 pins to play, I'm looking for some variety and any EM would fit that bill - including Wizard. (but really want Fireball!)

 

[Kratos3]

I believe Fireball will get made some day.

 

[SuperKaladrax]

Great post. I'll comment on that line, though. I don't think that's the attitude we're seeing, that you should only like DMDs. Liking EMs is perfectly fine. The attitude is that the market as a whole likes DMDs more and will buy them far more than EMs, and as a business that needs profit to survive, that's the direction Farsight has to go in.

You do have a real point that the whole poll process seemed rigged to force an EM to lose to Xenon, as if it's trying to sweep the EM issue under the rug that way. That's somewhat regrettable. But Farsight's got a point here too. All the folks that say they want EMs... is that really true? People even hold up Genie and Gorgar as examples of the EMs they like... which aren't even EMs! The polling and sales are delivering the hard numbers, that the EM love isn't nearly as much as a vocal minority wants to make it seem. Why didn't all these putative EM lovers step up and vote for Fireball? Because what they want isn't really EM in particular, it's the throwback gameplay style. Xenon can deliver that just as well while also crossing over to fans of later eras.

BTW, the only reason anyone hates Genie around here is that outlandish 3 million point wizard goal. If that were a manageable 1 million instead, it would be loved perfectly well.

It's not the general attitude, but I saw that sentiment expressed in one of the threads (maybe this one). I didn't feel like hunting it down and calling out a specific person over it, I'm not looking to pick any fights, so I just decided to address it in the general sense.

My post was also a bit unclear about Genie. Genie the table sold me on TPA (way back when first released) but the possibility of more EM's is why I've been buying every table, as general support. It sort of reads like I was conflating Genie and EMs. Though you are right that I do enjoy, in particular, the throwback gameplay. Early SS is my era of choice, but EM's are close enough (especially later ones) to near as make no difference to me. I mostly stump for EM because I think a small fraction of them, compared to the large SS/DMD selection is not too much to ask.

As to the poll data not showing love for EMs, it doesn't show that at all. It only shows that more people preferred Xenon than any other single table. We (and Farsight) have no idea how many people who voted for Paragon and Xenon would also buy Fireball. We can't quantify the crossover, definitely not from those polls. I voted for an EM first round, and Paragon in the second. I want Paragon more than Xenon or Fireball - but I would also buy both of those. And if I'd known it was them or an EM, and that the poll was determining the viability of an EM at all, I would under those circumstances certainly have voted Fireball instead. So we cannot infer from the data that the poor showing for Fireball indicates anything except that it's less popular than Xenon or Paragon. That those two might also be SS is also entirely irrelevant. If we put Fireball up against other contenders, let's say LCA and El Dorado, would we see the same numbers? I highly doubt it, because SS vs EM wasn't the purpose of the poll. Similarly, if you put any of those tables in the poll up against Freddy or GNR and I'm voting Freddy or GNR. Because I'd walk over my gramma to get those. Doesn't mean I don't want the other tables ever.

If Farsight wants to use the poll results to allocate priority of development, but not to take EMs out of contention, I also don't have a problem with that. Because the results do show that Xenon and Paragon should be made before Fireball.

As regards sale data, does anybody remember what tables Big Shot and Central Park were paired with? Because I see this one a lot, too, but nobody seems to know how they seem to know it's Big Shot or Central Park bringing the pack down. Does this mean if Big Shot was paired with, I dunno, Attack From Mars, we'd be swimming in EMs now because the pack sold well? So without knowing how that's determined (which may be proprietary and never answered), I'm not prepared to accept it on the face of it.

Finally, if Farsight would consider it I don't think a Kickstarter for EMs is a bad idea. This came up in the past, some people were vocally opposed on the grounds that it's not what KS is for. I think after Potato Salad, an EM kickstarter definitely can count as valid. This way they can not only gauge actual interest, they can offset or eliminate any cost risks. I would totally support the idea of a kickstarter for an EM table pack. Or even a single table. It's a million times better than no EM at all, ever. Give us the chance to put our money where our mouth is. If we don't pony up, you've lost nothing and we all know the score then.

It's a lot better than the present nebulous state of affairs.

Edit: Central Park was paired with Cactus Canyon and Big Shot with Scared Stiff. Both of those tables ought to have done okay. Maybe FS can tell the frequency of play, or high scores submitted, or something. That might be a little more valid, though I'm still not especially convinced that 2 instances are enough to declare the entire history of EMs dead and buried. I also know I haven't been submitting scores on my android (I culled all the phone-home parts I could), possibly not on xbox 360 (which doesn't yet have those packs anyway) - so my play history would probably show that I buy pinball tables but hate every single one.

 

[JJH516]

I believe Fireball will get made some day.

I do as well, and I'm hoping its next season.

Finally, if Farsight would consider it I don't think a Kickstarter for EMs is a bad idea.

I can tell you, with 100% accuracy, that this will never happen. In fact, it was even asked once on a Twitch Feed, and the response was met with chuckles and a flat out "No.". I wouldn't even support this idea, unless it was for 5-10 tables, something along those lines. However, even then, it still wouldn't happen because they just don't have enough time or resources to commit to 5-10 more tables a season anymore.

 

[vikingerik]

As regards sale data, does anybody remember what tables Big Shot and Central Park were paired with? Because I see this one a lot, too, but nobody seems to know how they seem to know it's Big Shot or Central Park bringing the pack down.

Big Shot/Scared Stiff and Central Park/Cactus Canyon.

Farsight seems to operate as though they do have sales data for the EMs. This is hypothesizing, but the most obvious way to do it would be to report and track which table initiated the purchase from within the game. Obviously that's not infallible, but would give you a decent ballpark estimate, certainly enough to get a good idea of whether the sales are driven 50/50 or 90/10.

They can also know player engagement fairly accurately by counting the number of hits to the leaderboards. Or count support inquiries related to each table, or forum and facebook mentions, or even Google traffic referrers, or some other similar proxy metric.

Or even without that, there's some meaning to be found in sales totals alone. It would be pretty reasonable to compare a pair of packs with similar leading tables and different-era secondary tables (say Champion Pub/Whirlwind and Cactus Canyon/Central Park, or AFM/Genie and MM/Bride) to tease out how much appeal is brought by the latter.

I trust Farsight knows what they're doing with their ideas of projected sales for EMs. The prior tables being paired in packs doesn't prevent that at all.

 

[JJH516]

Big Shot/Scared Stiff and Central Park/Cactus Canyon.

Farsight seems to operate as though they do have sales data for the EMs. This is hypothesizing, but the most obvious way to do it would be to report and track which table initiated the purchase from within the game. Obviously that's not infallible, but would give you a decent ballpark estimate, certainly enough to get a good idea of whether the sales are driven 50/50 or 90/10.

They can also know player engagement fairly accurately by counting the number of hits to the leaderboards. Or count support inquiries related to each table, or forum and facebook mentions, or even Google traffic referrers, or some other similar proxy metric.

Or even without that, there's some meaning to be found in sales totals alone. It would be pretty reasonable to compare a pair of packs with similar leading tables and different-era secondary tables (say Champion Pub/Whirlwind and Cactus Canyon/Central Park, or AFM/Genie and MM/Bride) to tease out how much appeal is brought by the latter.

I trust Farsight knows what they're doing with their ideas of projected sales for EMs. The prior tables being paired in packs doesn't prevent that at all.

Plus they go on feedback and by what type of table gets requested. A lot of complaints come from the EM's or really shoddy games like LCA.

What gets requested the most? DMD's

What gets requested the least? EM's

 

[Espy]

Big Shot/Scared Stiff and Central Park/Cactus Canyon.

Farsight seems to operate as though they do have sales data for the EMs. This is hypothesizing, but the most obvious way to do it would be to report and track which table initiated the purchase from within the game. Obviously that's not infallible, but would give you a decent ballpark estimate, certainly enough to get a good idea of whether the sales are driven 50/50 or 90/10.

They can also know player engagement fairly accurately by counting the number of hits to the leaderboards. Or count support inquiries related to each table, or forum and facebook mentions, or even Google traffic referrers, or some other similar proxy metric.

Or even without that, there's some meaning to be found in sales totals alone. It would be pretty reasonable to compare a pair of packs with similar leading tables and different-era secondary tables (say Champion Pub/Whirlwind and Cactus Canyon/Central Park, or AFM/Genie and MM/Bride) to tease out how much appeal is brought by the latter.

I trust Farsight knows what they're doing with their ideas of projected sales for EMs. The prior tables being paired in packs doesn't prevent that at all.

Remember that one some devices you can/could buy tables individually, so Farsight would have some sales data from that.

 

[SuperKaladrax]

I can tell you, with 100% accuracy, that this will never happen. In fact, it was even asked once on a Twitch Feed, and the response was met with chuckles and a flat out "No."

Oh. I didn't know this. I guess that settles that. Anyway, I've pretty much said all I have to say on it. I'm soon... or eventually... going to get the Table Bomb on Xbox 360 anyway, which will keep me occupied for a while. Maybe there's future hope for at least Fireball, or maybe even some of the later EM/SS crossover tables. A passionate case has been made for EMs, but even if no new ones ever appear there's still a lot of non-EM tables out there that would make cool additions. EM people might never get their wish, but at least they've been heard. Outside GnR and Freddy, my wishlist is pretty much filled out already anyway. GnR I don't think there's much hope for - even outside the license the negotiations would probably be impossible. Freddy maybe, that'd be a decent one to fill a Gottlieb slot.

Anything outside of those 2 and what I will already have is pretty much gravy.

 

[JJH516]

Oh. I didn't know this. I guess that settles that. Anyway, I've pretty much said all I have to say on it. I'm soon... or eventually... going to get the Table Bomb on Xbox 360 anyway, which will keep me occupied for a while. Maybe there's future hope for at least Fireball, or maybe even some of the later EM/SS crossover tables. A passionate case has been made for EMs, but even if no new ones ever appear there's still a lot of non-EM tables out there that would make cool additions. EM people might never get their wish, but at least they've been heard. Outside GnR and Freddy, my wishlist is pretty much filled out already anyway. GnR I don't think there's much hope for - even outside the license the negotiations would probably be impossible. Freddy maybe, that'd be a decent one to fill a Gottlieb slot.

Anything outside of those 2 and what I will already have is pretty much gravy.

If they could get Freddy and Indiana Jones, I'd be a happy man.

 

[David T. Melnick]

I've never seen any actual sales data they've released and don't think it exists outside of the company. So all anyone has to go on is general comments employees have made about sales. I don't recall seeing any comments specifically about Season Pass vs Individual Table/Table Pack sales. I would be curious about the numbers as well as platform sales. But don't think we'll ever see those.

But yeah employees have commented more than once that EMs did not sell well. And I think these recent polls have shown they are a hard sell with the community.

I do hope they find some way to add an EM. Silverballs had a neat idea of offering a free EM table if you own a (or all) of the season passes to entice people to purchase season passes. And I threw in the idea of adding an EM as an additional table for the next Kickstarter table reward. If they can't viably add an EM to a season then hopefully they can figure out a creative way to make it happen.

At this point in the game life, where you have more than 50 pins to play, I'm looking for some variety and any EM would fit that bill - including Wizard. (but really want Fireball!)

----------
yes...that's all I'm asking for. Putting a well wanted EM for an incentive for a kickstarter.